As far as I know, my post dated Nov 21 lists all the teams that
nobody disagrees with.
Mark wrote:
As far as I know, my post dated Nov 21 lists all the teams thatI disagree with it!
nobody disagrees with.
But you insist on persisiting with an attempt to reach a consensus on *our* objective list and want to
include the views of as many people as possible on RSS. It is our top ten greatest national football teams
ever and ours alone... provided others here have the same opinion as
you.
On Sunday, November 28, 2021 at 8:14:11 PM UTC, Blueshirt wrote:
Mark wrote:
As far as I know, my post dated Nov 21 lists all the teams thatI disagree with it!
nobody disagrees with.
Ok, which teams do you disagree with?
But you insist on persisiting with an attempt to reach a consensus on *our* objective list and want to
include the views of as many people as possible on RSS. It is our top ten greatest national football teams
ever and ours alone... provided others here have the same opinion as
you.
Fixed your post for you. If it was my top 10 it wouldn't include France 2016-21 and probably wouldn't include Hungary either. The majority of teams in my latest proposal are teams that nobody has said they disagree with.
I don't understand why I seem to be being given such a hard time about trying to reach a consensus. I've invited other people to propose a top 10. If nobody else does, what am I supposed to do to reach a consensus?
I pressed to make a list, I would not include many of the ones you
mention. Anything before 1950 is not worth considering because we
really can't judge at all. Football was not professional yet in many countries, and quite a few were outside of the FIFA fold. Travel was onerous, refereeing widely inconsistent, and so on.
My list (in approximate order)
Brazil ca. 1970
Germany 1972-76
Spain 2008-2012
France 1984-86
Hungary 1950-55
Brazil 1958-62
France 2016-2021
Brazil 1994-97
Brazil 1982-86
Netherlands 1974-78
On Monday, November 29, 2021 at 6:08:26 PM UTC, MH wrote:
I pressed to make a list, I would not include many of the ones you
mention. Anything before 1950 is not worth considering because we
really can't judge at all. Football was not professional yet in many
countries, and quite a few were outside of the FIFA fold. Travel was
onerous, refereeing widely inconsistent, and so on.
But we've got to consider it if it's going to be an all-time list.
My list (in approximate order)
Brazil ca. 1970
OK
Germany 1972-76
Probably should be lower, but OK.
Spain 2008-2012
OK.
France 1984-86
Definitely disagree. If this is the lowest you're willing to put them we're not going to reach an agreement on more than a top 3. I definitely don't think they should be in the Top 10.
Hungary 1950-55
Disagree somewhat, but in the interests of reaching a consensus I'm willing to accept them
Brazil 1958-62
OK. Shouldn't they be higher though? They won 2 World Cups; Brazil 1970 only won 1.
France 2016-2021
Disagree somewhat, but I'm willing to accept them as with Hungary.
Brazil 1994-97
Possibly should be higher. And why not 1994-99?
Brazil 1982-86
Had some very good players, but never won anything. I'm reasonably sure there's been at least 10 teams that were better than them.
Netherlands 1974-78
But in your post dated Nov 10, you said they should be excluded because they didn't win anything. We've already rejected them. Or was my comment about them playing away from home in both World Cup Finals enough to make you change your mind?
On Monday, November 29, 2021 at 7:47:09 PM UTC, Futbolmetrix wrote:
[Argentina 1941-47] Does not belong on this list. For all their supposed greatness, they never had the opportunity to confront themselves against the best in Europe. Might as well include England from the 1910s then.
They won 4 out of 5 Copa Americas, and were runners-up in the other one. That's far more than England ever achieved. And they played against the best teams in the World.
And 3 consecutive Copa Americas is an achievement that's never been repeated by anyone in Europe ...
On 01/12/2021 17:16, Mark wrote:
On Monday, November 29, 2021 at 7:47:09 PM UTC, Futbolmetrix wrote:
[Argentina 1941-47] Does not belong on this list. For all their supposed greatness, they never had the opportunity to confront themselves against the best in Europe. Might as well include England from the 1910s then.
They won 4 out of 5 Copa Americas, and were runners-up in the other one. That's far more than England ever achieved. And they played against the best teams in the World.South America is not the world.
And 3 consecutive Copa Americas is an achievement that's never been repeated by anyone in Europe ...
There's actually a very good reason for that one... I wonder if you can
work it out? ;-)
The 1950 World Cup produced strong evidence that Uruguay and Brazil were the best teams in the World though.Maybe, maybe not. Some teams didn't send their pros (Sweden). Others were wiped out by an airplane accident the year before. Travel conditions were still pretty awful so that the home continent advantage was significant. And even if I'm willing to buy that Argentina was the best team in the world between 1941 and 1947 (and I'm OK with that), that title carries a huge asterisk because of the devastations of WWII on the other side of the Atlantic.
Right, and England and Scotland won three consecutive Home Nations Campionships (not too different from 1940s Copa America in terms of number and competitiveness of the participants) at various points in their history.And 3 consecutive Copa Americas is an achievement that's never been repeated by anyone in Europe ...
There's actually a very good reason for that one... I wonder if you can work it out? ;-)3 consecutive continental championships then. Silly boy. :-)
On 2021-11-30 12:21, Mark wrote:Austria never won anything. There's no evidence that Scotland or England were that good. The only team before Uruguay that I'm aware of any evidence for is England in the 1910s. It was mentioned earlier in the thread that they had a high Elo rating. But even they didn't have any all-time great players or anything. I think it's reasonably safe to assume there were no real candidates for the top 10 before Uruguay.
On Monday, November 29, 2021 at 6:08:26 PM UTC, MH wrote:
I pressed to make a list, I would not include many of the ones you
mention. Anything before 1950 is not worth considering because we
really can't judge at all. Football was not professional yet in many
countries, and quite a few were outside of the FIFA fold. Travel was
onerous, refereeing widely inconsistent, and so on.
But we've got to consider it if it's going to be an all-time list.Where do you draw the line though, once you go back to ancient history
with almost no film footage, many amateur players, and so on. If you
are going to include old teams why not the Austrian Wunderteam of the
early 30s? Why not Scotland or England in the 20s ? If someone says any
of those were quite clearly the best team in the world at those times,
we can only take their word for it.
On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 10:55:39 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:There's no comparison between the Home nations championships and the Copa America in the 1940s. But OK, if you're sure, your rejection of Argentina 1941-47 is noted.
The 1950 World Cup produced strong evidence that Uruguay and Brazil were the best teams in the World though.Maybe, maybe not. Some teams didn't send their pros (Sweden). Others were wiped out by an airplane accident the year before. Travel conditions were still pretty awful so that the home continent advantage was significant. And even if I'm willing to buy that Argentina was the best team in the world between 1941 and 1947 (and I'm OK with that), that title carries a huge asterisk because of the devastations of WWII on the other side of the Atlantic.
So sorry, you wanted a consensus: Argentina 1941-1947 does not belong on this list, and you will never have consensus if you insist on including them.
And 3 consecutive Copa Americas is an achievement that's never been repeated by anyone in Europe ...
Right, and England and Scotland won three consecutive Home Nations Campionships (not too different from 1940s Copa America in terms of number and competitiveness of the participants) at various points in their history.There's actually a very good reason for that one... I wonder if you can work it out? ;-)3 consecutive continental championships then. Silly boy. :-)
On Tuesday, November 30, 2021 at 9:31:59 PM UTC, MH wrote:
On 2021-11-30 12:21, Mark wrote:Austria never won anything.
On Monday, November 29, 2021 at 6:08:26 PM UTC, MH wrote:Where do you draw the line though, once you go back to ancient history
I pressed to make a list, I would not include many of the ones you
mention. Anything before 1950 is not worth considering because we
really can't judge at all. Football was not professional yet in many
countries, and quite a few were outside of the FIFA fold. Travel was
onerous, refereeing widely inconsistent, and so on.
But we've got to consider it if it's going to be an all-time list.
with almost no film footage, many amateur players, and so on. If you
are going to include old teams why not the Austrian Wunderteam of the
early 30s? Why not Scotland or England in the 20s ? If someone says any
of those were quite clearly the best team in the world at those times,
we can only take their word for it.
I forgot to respond to your point about Uruguay's home advantage in 1930 earlier. Home advantage can work both ways for the top teams; just look at Brazil in 1950 and 2014. They've got the pressure and weight of expectation to deal with. And other teams have won tournaments with home advantage, such as Germany in 1974 and France in 1998, and it doesn't seem to affect people's perception of them as great teams very much.
Anyway my point is that NONE of these teams from before about 1958 can really be considered objectively. There were not enough games. Many
players were not professionals. There were no substitutes and some of
the players/coaches were also referees at the same tournaments. A match could turn on an early injury to a player who could not be replaced
(though that was also true all the way to 1966 I think)
Anyway my point is that NONE of these teams from before about 1958 can really be considered objectively.
There were not enough games.
Many
players were not professionals. There were no substitutes and some of
the players/coaches were also referees at the same tournaments. A match could turn on an early injury to a player who could not be replaced
(though that was also true all the way to 1966 I think)
I've looked at MH's list and my 2nd proposal, and people's responses, and shuffled the teams around a bit, and this is what I've come up with, very roughly in order:New proposal for the top 10 then:
Brazil 1970
Spain 2008-12
Germany 1972-76
Hungary 1950-56
Brazil 1958-62
Brazil 1994-99
Uruguay 1926-30
France 2016-2021
with the following teams in contention to fill in any gaps:
France 1998-2000
Germany 1980(?)-90(?)
Brazil 2002-07
Germany 2008-2014
Brazil 1982-86
Argentina 1986-90 (I checked the squad lists and there aren't many players in the 1991 squad that played at the 1986 World Cup either)
I think that's all the teams still in contention.
On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 7:07:26 PM UTC, Mark wrote:
I've looked at MH's list and my 2nd proposal, and people's responses, and shuffled the teams around a bit, and this is what I've come up with, very roughly in order:
Brazil 1970
Spain 2008-12
Germany 1972-76
Hungary 1950-56
Brazil 1958-62
Brazil 1994-99
Uruguay 1926-30
France 2016-2021
with the following teams in contention to fill in any gaps:
France 1998-2000
Germany 1980(?)-90(?)
Brazil 2002-07
Germany 2008-2014
Brazil 1982-86
Argentina 1986-90 (I checked the squad lists and there aren't many players in the 1991 squad that played at the 1986 World Cup either)
I think that's all the teams still in contention.
New proposal for the top 10 then:
1 Brazil 1958-62
2 Spain 2008-12
3 Brazil 1969-70
4 Germany 1980-90
5 Germany 1972-76
6 Hungary 1950-56
7 Brazil 1994-99
8 Uruguay 1926-30
9 France 1998-2000
10 France 2016-2021
I've put Brazil 1958-62 at no. 1; they won 2 World Cups, the other teams only won 1. I don't feel strongly about the order of the top 3 though. Brazil 1970 have become Brazil 1969-70 to include the World Cup qualifiers.
Germany 1980-90 reached 3 consecutive World Cup Finals, and won 1 of them so I think they're probably better than nos. 5 and 6.
Brazil 1994-97 have become 1994-99 again. I think they looked good in 1998, and they won the Copa America in 1999.
Uruguay, due to other teams dropping out, have moved up 1 place. Thought I'd better highlight that, so nobody thinks I've just moved them up and am hoping nobody notices.
What do you think of that for the top 10 then?
A question has crossed my mind. In the club teams thread, the point was made about certain teams that they hadn't been dominant domestically, and this was evidence that they weren't so good. Doesn't this logic also apply to Brazil here? Between 1958 and 1970, Brazil never won the Copa America. Were Brazil as good as they're made out to be?
On 2021-12-07 09:39, Mark wrote:
On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 7:07:26 PM UTC, Mark wrote:
I've looked at MH's list and my 2nd proposal, and people's responses, and shuffled the teams around a bit, and this is what I've come up with, very roughly in order:
Brazil 1970
Spain 2008-12
Germany 1972-76
Hungary 1950-56
Brazil 1958-62
Brazil 1994-99
Uruguay 1926-30
France 2016-2021
with the following teams in contention to fill in any gaps:
France 1998-2000
Germany 1980(?)-90(?)
Brazil 2002-07
Germany 2008-2014
Brazil 1982-86
Argentina 1986-90 (I checked the squad lists and there aren't many players in the 1991 squad that played at the 1986 World Cup either)
I think that's all the teams still in contention.
New proposal for the top 10 then:
1 Brazil 1958-62
2 Spain 2008-12
3 Brazil 1969-70
4 Germany 1980-90
5 Germany 1972-76
6 Hungary 1950-56
7 Brazil 1994-99
8 Uruguay 1926-30
9 France 1998-2000
10 France 2016-2021
I've put Brazil 1958-62 at no. 1; they won 2 World Cups, the other teams only won 1. I don't feel strongly about the order of the top 3 though. Brazil 1970 have become Brazil 1969-70 to include the World Cup qualifiers.Sure, they reached 3 consecutive finals, but struggled to get to two of those finals. The 1980 Euro champions with Schuster, Hansi M|+ller at
Germany 1980-90 reached 3 consecutive World Cup Finals, and won 1 of them so I think they're probably better than nos. 5 and 6.
his best etc was a strong team. By 1982, they were limping - partly injuries, partly Derwall getting too defensive. They lost to Algeria,
could not beat England, and were well beaten in the final. Then they
had a dismal performance in Euro 1984 (only qualifying by the skin of
their teeth then going out in the first round. So considering this
entire 10 year period as a highlight is a bit extreme. They also underperformed in the Euros at home. Then, who was left from the 1980
Euro winners in 1990 ? Only Matth|nus, who got on the pitch for about 20 minutes vs. the Netherlands in 1980, when Germany were up by a few
Allofs goals.
So I would definitely reverse those two. Germany 1972 swept all before
them. 1974 they won the world cup. 1976 they lost the Euros on
penalties. That is a pretty convincing 4 years (more if you count qualifiers) and a lot of the players were maintained throughout that.
Brazil 1994-97 have become 1994-99 again. I think they looked good in 1998, and they won the Copa America in 1999.
Uruguay, due to other teams dropping out, have moved up 1 place. Thought I'd better highlight that, so nobody thinks I've just moved them up and am hoping nobody notices.
What do you think of that for the top 10 then?Better.
A question has crossed my mind. In the club teams thread, the point was made about certain teams that they hadn't been dominant domestically, and this was evidence that they weren't so good. Doesn't this logic also apply to Brazil here? Between 1958 and 1970, Brazil never won the Copa America. Were Brazil as good as they're made out to be?Yes. The Copa America has a chequered history. Intervals between competitions were uneven, and in some years some countries did not send their best teams. None was held between 1967 and 1975, for instance. But don't take my word for it, here's WIKI
"The event then entered a period of great disruption. The championship
was not played on a regular basis and many editions would be deemed unofficial, only to be considered valid later on by CONMEBOL. For
example, Argentina would be the first (and so far only) team to win
three consecutive titles by winning the championships of 1945, 1946 and 1947. After those three annual tournaments, the competition returned to being held every two years, then three and later four. There were even
two tournaments held in 1959, one in Argentina and a second in Ecuador. During this period, some of the national teams were indifferent to the tournament. Some did not participate every year, others sent lesser
teams; in the 1959 edition held in Ecuador, Brazil entered a team from
the state of Pernambuco. Bolivia won for the first time when it hosted
in 1963, but was defeated in the first game of the 1967 tournament by debutant Venezuela. The founding of the Copa Libertadores in 1959 also affected the way the tournament was viewed by its participants.
After eight years of absence, the event resumed in 1975 and officially acquired the name Copa Am|-rica. The tournament had no fixed venue, and
all matches were played throughout the year in each country. Nine teams participated in the group stages with the defending champions receiving
a bye into the semifinals. The tournament was contested every four years using this system until 1987. "
I've checked the squad lists, and predictably, but annoyingly, I could only find 2 players in Germany's 1990 World Cup squad that were in the 1982 World Cup squad, never mind the 1980 squad. So Germany 1980-90 becomes Germany 1986-92? I didn't check the 1986 or 1992 squads.Latest proposal for the top 10:
If I put Brazil 2002-07 in at number 9 and push everyone up 1, that means Uruguay are back at number 7. Is everyone OK with that?
Or are Germany 1986-92 better than Brazil 2002-07 anyway? There could be a case for putting them as high as number 8 I suppose.
Latest proposal for the top 10:
1 Brazil 1958-62
2 Spain 2008-12
3 Brazil 1969-70
4 Germany 1972-76
5 Hungary 1950-56
6 Brazil 1994-99
7 Uruguay 1926-30
8 Germany 1986-92
9 France 1998-2000
10 France 2016-2021
On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 3:22:34 PM UTC, Mark wrote:
Latest proposal for the top 10:Does everyone agree ( or at least not particularly disagree) with this then? Even with Uruguay at no. 7, which there was some disagreement over?
1 Brazil 1958-62
2 Spain 2008-12
3 Brazil 1969-70
4 Germany 1972-76
5 Hungary 1950-56
6 Brazil 1994-99
7 Uruguay 1926-30
8 Germany 1986-92
9 France 1998-2000
10 France 2016-2021
On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 6:13:32 PM UTC, Mark wrote:
On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 3:22:34 PM UTC, Mark wrote:
Yay! We have a consensus!Latest proposal for the top 10:Does everyone agree ( or at least not particularly disagree) with this then? Even with Uruguay at no. 7, which there was some disagreement over?
1 Brazil 1958-62
2 Spain 2008-12
3 Brazil 1969-70
4 Germany 1972-76
5 Hungary 1950-56
6 Brazil 1994-99
7 Uruguay 1926-30
8 Germany 1986-92
9 France 1998-2000
10 France 2016-2021
So, the unofficial rss-sanctioned Top 10 best national teams ever is:
1 Brazil 1958-62
2 Spain 2008-12
3 Brazil 1969-70
4 Germany 1972-76
5 Hungary 1950-56
6 Brazil 1994-99
7 Uruguay 1926-30
8 Germany 1986-92
9 France 1998-2000
10 France 2016-2021
So I've seen the 2nd best national team ever play, in the flesh! I saw Spain play at Hampden Park in October 2010.
What would the top 10 look like if we were only allowed 1 team from each country?
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