Who are the Top 10 best national teams ever?Based on http://eloratings.net/graph, we could highlight the teams that were high above all the others in their time:
Let's see if we can work together to compile a top ten.
Here's who I feel are the main candidates; with major question marks over what years to include:
Uruguay 1926(?)-30
Italy 1934-38
Argentina 1945(?) -47
Brazil 1958-70
Peru 1970-78
Argentina 1986-93
Brazil 1994-2007
France 1998-2000
Spain 2008-12
And then there's Germany, who had a long period of success from 1972-90; that's got to be AT LEAST 2 different teams.
Actually that seems too short a short-list, so I'll leave Peru in (who I was thinking of just giving an honourable mention to), and add 2 teams that never won a major title:
Netherlands 1974-78
Hungary 1952(?)-54
And thinking through all the World Champions not already included, I'll add
Germany 2014
on the strength of that incredible away win against Brazil in the 2014 World Cup semi-final.
I think Brazil 1958-70 should be no. 1 if that counts as 1 team. That's a big if though; I wouldn't be surprised if Pele was the only player that was still playing for them in 1970!
How would you rate these teams? (and any others you think might be worthy of a place in the Top 10).
Em quarta-feira, 27 de outubro de 2021 |as 13:11:12 UTC-3, Mark escreveu:
How would you rate these teams? (and any others you think might be worthy of a place in the Top 10).
Based on http://eloratings.net/graph, we could highlight the teams that were high above all the others in their time:
England of the early 1910's
Hungary of the mid 50's
Brazil of the late 50's and early 60's
England of the late 60's
Brazil ot the early 70's
Germany of the mid to late 70's
Brazil of the early 80's
Netherlands of the late 80's
Germany of the early 90's
France of the early 2000's
On 27/10/2021 21:08, Jesus Petry wrote:
Em quarta-feira, 27 de outubro de 2021 |as 13:11:12 UTC-3, Mark escreveu: >>>
How would you rate these teams? (and any others you think might be
worthy of a place in the Top 10).
-a Based on http://eloratings.net/graph, we could highlight the teams
that were high above all the others in their time:
-a England of the early 1910's
-a Hungary of the mid 50's
-a Brazil of the late 50's and early 60's
-a England of the late 60's
-a Brazil ot the early 70's
-a Germany of the mid to late 70's
-a Brazil of the early 80's
-a Netherlands of the late 80's
-a Germany of the early 90's
-a France of the early 2000's
I doubt Mark will be very impressed that you've put England in there... twice! ;-)
Sarcasm aside: West Germany of the mid 1970's,
Spain around 2008-2013 (ish) would be my top three national teams.
Although I'm sure I could throw another Brazil in there somewhere (Jairzinho, Rivelino, Clodoaldo, Tostao, etc...) but then it wouldn't be
a top three, so I won't!
Who are the Top 10 best national teams ever?
Let's see if we can work together to compile a top ten.
On 2021-10-27 16:01, Blueshirt wrote:No team prior to 1960 should be considered. The pool of serious footballing nations was much smaller, the WCs were a joke (some teams couldn't even undertake the cost of international travel), tactics in the game were in their infancy (2-3-5, seriously?), and some top players were actually functioning alcoholics during their playing days.
On 27/10/2021 21:08, Jesus Petry wrote:too long ago for me to say.
Em quarta-feira, 27 de outubro de 2021 |as 13:11:12 UTC-3, Mark escreveu: >>>
How would you rate these teams? (and any others you think might be
worthy of a place in the Top 10).
Based on http://eloratings.net/graph, we could highlight the teams
that were high above all the others in their time:
England of the early 1910's
Contemporary sources rate them very highly. I was not there and haveHungary of the mid 50's
only seen fuzzy footage of bits of the 1954 final.
Em quarta-feira, 27 de outubro de 2021 |as 13:11:12 UTC-3, Mark escreveu:Bleh! :-)
Who are the Top 10 best national teams ever?
Let's see if we can work together to compile a top ten.
Here's who I feel are the main candidates; with major question marks over what years to include:
Uruguay 1926(?)-30
Italy 1934-38
Argentina 1945(?) -47
Brazil 1958-70
Peru 1970-78
Argentina 1986-93
Brazil 1994-2007
France 1998-2000
Spain 2008-12
And then there's Germany, who had a long period of success from 1972-90; that's got to be AT LEAST 2 different teams.
Actually that seems too short a short-list, so I'll leave Peru in (who I was thinking of just giving an honourable mention to), and add 2 teams that never won a major title:
Netherlands 1974-78
Hungary 1952(?)-54
And thinking through all the World Champions not already included, I'll add
Germany 2014
on the strength of that incredible away win against Brazil in the 2014 World Cup semi-final.
I think Brazil 1958-70 should be no. 1 if that counts as 1 team. That's a big if though; I wouldn't be surprised if Pele was the only player that was still playing for them in 1970!
How would you rate these teams? (and any others you think might be worthy of a place in the Top 10).Based on http://eloratings.net/graph, we could highlight the teams that were high above all the others in their time:
England of the early 1910's
Hungary of the mid 50'sNever won a major title, so I don't think they should be in the top 10.
Brazil of the late 50's and early 60'sDefinitely one of the best.
England of the late 60'sWon 1 major title because of home advantage, gamesmanship, and, if not outright cheating, biased refereeing; and never reached the final of a major tournament without home advantage.
Brazil ot the early 70'sEarly 70s? They won every match, including in the qualifiers, in the 1970 World Cup; that would be 1969(?)-70 though. What did they achieve after 1970 though?
Germany of the mid to late 70'sI agree with MH here. Early to mid 80s. European Champions 1972, World Champions 1974, European Championship runners-up 1976. They're next top 2 finish in a major tournament wasn't till 1980.
Brazil of the early 80'sHad some good players, but never won anything.
Netherlands of the late 80'sDeservedly won the European Championship in 1988, and had a lot of good players. Not good enough for the top 10 though.
Germany of the early 90'sSurely the team they had that reached 3 consecutive World Cup Finals from 1982-1990 was better? Between 1990 and 1996 all they achieved was runners-up at the 1992 European Championship.
France of the early 2000'sTo some extent I agree with MH that they were perhaps a bit over-rated. They won the World Cup as host country - well even England have done that. And they won the European Championship - well even Greece have done that. And their attempts to defend each of those titles (particularly the World Cup) were unimpressive. Winning both in such a short space of time is impressive though.
On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 12:11:12 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
Who are the Top 10 best national teams ever?
Let's see if we can work together to compile a top ten.
England 1966 is the greatest ever, as agreed upon by all the experts. Case closed.
Who are the Top 10 best national teams ever?
Let's see if we can work together to compile a top ten.
Here's who I feel are the main candidates; with major question marks over what years to include:
Uruguay 1926(?)-30
Italy 1934-38
Argentina 1945(?) -47
Brazil 1958-70
Peru 1970-78
Argentina 1986-93
Brazil 1994-2007
France 1998-2000
Spain 2008-12
And then there's Germany, who had a long period of success from 1972-90; that's got to be AT LEAST 2 different teams.
Actually that seems too short a short-list, so I'll leave Peru in (who I was thinking of just giving an honourable mention to), and add 2 teams that never won a major title:
Netherlands 1974-78
Hungary 1952(?)-54
And thinking through all the World Champions not already included, I'll add
Germany 2014
on the strength of that incredible away win against Brazil in the 2014 World Cup semi-final.
I think Brazil 1958-70 should be no. 1 if that counts as 1 team. That's a big if though; I wouldn't be surprised if Pele was the only player that was still playing for them in 1970!
How would you rate these teams? (and any others you think might be worthy of a place in the Top 10).
On 10/11/2021 18:33, Mark wrote:There's 2 ways of dealing with that problem. We could build a time machine (I know, this one only works in theory) and set up a tournament between them all. Or more realistically, we can watch recordings of matches online. I'm not sure if there's matches to watch online from as far back as the 1930s, but there certainly are from the 1950s.
The main reason I included Hungary was because Ion Saliu spoke so highly of them.FWIW, the Hungary of 1950-56 (ish) are widely acknowledged as being a
great team.
How are titles/results any more arbitrary than Elo ratings? If anyone disagrees with the proposed Top 10 they're free to say so. If nobody says they disagree then it's reasonable to assume that they don't.That's the thing Mark, it's all kind of arbitrary... how can any of us
here know how good the England of 1910 were compared to Brazil of the 1970's? Or compare the Spain of 2008-12 to Hungary of the 1950's?
There's no way to realistically rate national teams from different eras
as it's all subjective. It's not like we lived through all of those eras
and saw those nations play!
As a kid, West Germany, Holland and Brazil impressed me. As an adult, in recent years, Spain's football impressed me. In between those years wasI think I can see your point to some extent, but I don't agree that it's just an opinion. I don't see any reason to think that there aren't an objectively 10 best teams of all time. It's just difficult to determine who they are because a lot of them are about as good as each other.
a France, Italy, Argentina and another Brazil. Could I really judge all
of those great teams without some kind of personal preference? So I can disagree with your list and you could disagree with mine, but nobody
else could say one of us was right and the other is wrong. As it's only
an opinion at the end of the day.
I did put my top three in a post [somewhere above] and that's probablyMaybe you can compare an apple and an orange; the apple's got a couple of blemishes on the skin, they're about equally nutritious, and the orange tastes nicer, so the orange is better. Well, OK, the taste is a matter of opinion (probably).
as far as I could go, as it's a bit like comparing apples and oranges.
Make your lists by all means, but I don't see why you need to have it declared as an officially sanctioned RSS top ten.I suppose my motivation for starting this thread was that I wanted to compile a top 10, but didn't really know enough to compile one that I'd be confident was accurate; so doing it together would be a good way of coming up with a more well-informed, and therefore more accurate, top 10. I'd really like to achieve a consensus between us if we can. I think you might be giving up too easily.
On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 10:18:07 PM UTC, Blueshirt wrote:
On 10/11/2021 18:33, Mark wrote:
How are titles/results any more arbitrary than Elo ratings? If anyone disagrees with the proposed Top 10 they're free to say so. If nobody says they disagree then it's reasonable to assume that they don't.That's the thing Mark, it's all kind of arbitrary... how can any of us
here know how good the England of 1910 were compared to Brazil of the
1970's? Or compare the Spain of 2008-12 to Hungary of the 1950's?
There's no way to realistically rate national teams from different eras
as it's all subjective. It's not like we lived through all of those eras
and saw those nations play!
There's 2 ways of dealing with that problem. We could build a time machine (I know, this one only works in theory) and set up a tournament between them all...
Or more realistically, we can watch recordings of matches online.
On 2021-11-06 12:39, Mark wrote:Uruguay were Olympic Champions in 1928; the prominent European teams would have had a chance to prove they were better then. I'm not sure how much the Olympics counted for back then, but I think it counted for significantly more than it does now. If Scotland and England were good enough to beat them they'd have been good enough to make an impact at the 1934 World Cup; they literally didn't even turn up. And Uruguay were willing to pay everyone's travelling expenses in 1930, so what excuse have the prominent European countries got for not turning up then?
On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 4:55:19 PM UTC, Mark wrote:
OK here's a proposal for a Top 10. Using the word team very loosely; some of these have probably only got 1 or 2 players that were in the team for the whole period of time mentioned.
1 Brazil 1958-70
2 Spain 2008-12
3 Brazil 1994-99
4 Italy 1934-38
5 Argentina 1986-93
6 Argentina 1941-47
7 Uruguay 1926-30
8 Germany 1972-76
9 Hungary 1950-56
10 Netherlands 1974-78
And an honourable mention for Peru 1970-78; World Cup quarter-finalists in 1970, Champions of South America in 1975, and beat Brazil away on their way to the title, after Brazil had beaten Argentina away, World Cup quarter-finalists in 1978, won more major titles than the Netherlands team of that era or Hungary in the 1950s, and had 1 of the all time greats playing for them, Teofilo Cubillas.
What do you think of that list?
Hey have we actually reached a consensus? Nobody disagrees with this?
I disagree. I don't think Uruguay of 1926-30 belong there. None of us
saw them, there is limited footage, and pretty good grounds for thinking
the Scotland and England teams, at least, of that era, would have beat
them. Most prominent European countries did not participate in the 1930 WC
Italy 1934-38. Allegedly some skullduggery involved in their home win,I do vaguely remember reading somewhere that there was some skullduggery involved in 1934. Can you give any details?
and again it is all too long ago.
Argentina 1986 were good, but probably not as good as France or the USSRAs far as I know they were good in 1991 and 1993 too. (I didn't see any of their matches though.) I don't think they were that bad in 1990, but to some extent I agree about that year.
or Brazil from the same tournament. And by 1990 they were an
embarrassment that did not deserve to make the final. All of Italy,
Germany, Brazil, and possibly Yugoslavia were clearly better than they
were in that tournament.
NL 1974-1978. Remembered very fondly, but they won nothing and onlyCzechoslovakia went on to become champions of the continent so there's no shame in that. On the whole I agree though. In their defense, they reached 2 World Cup Finals, and faced opponents who had home advantage in both of them. Who knows whether they'd have won 1, or maybe both, of those finals if they'd been played at neutral venues?
barely qualified in 1974, and lost to Scotland in 1978. Beaten by the
Czechs in 1976 as well.
I can accept Hungary though I have seen only a few moments of theirI don't think they won enough. Were they any better than Netherlands late 1980s
play, since there is such a huge consensus over how good they were , and
how innovative their play. Plus the results vs. England and others
certainly support their prowess.
France 1984-86 belong on there.
France 2016-2021 belong on there as well.
A case could be made for Germany 2010-2014. Or even 2008-2014.
On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 8:17:14 PM UTC, MH wrote:
On 2021-11-06 12:39, Mark wrote:
On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 4:55:19 PM UTC, Mark wrote:I disagree. I don't think Uruguay of 1926-30 belong there. None of us
OK here's a proposal for a Top 10. Using the word team very loosely; some of these have probably only got 1 or 2 players that were in the team for the whole period of time mentioned.
1 Brazil 1958-70
2 Spain 2008-12
3 Brazil 1994-99
4 Italy 1934-38
5 Argentina 1986-93
6 Argentina 1941-47
7 Uruguay 1926-30
8 Germany 1972-76
9 Hungary 1950-56
10 Netherlands 1974-78
And an honourable mention for Peru 1970-78; World Cup quarter-finalists in 1970, Champions of South America in 1975, and beat Brazil away on their way to the title, after Brazil had beaten Argentina away, World Cup quarter-finalists in 1978, won more major titles than the Netherlands team of that era or Hungary in the 1950s, and had 1 of the all time greats playing for them, Teofilo Cubillas.
What do you think of that list?
Hey have we actually reached a consensus? Nobody disagrees with this?
saw them, there is limited footage, and pretty good grounds for thinking
the Scotland and England teams, at least, of that era, would have beat
them. Most prominent European countries did not participate in the 1930 WC
Uruguay were Olympic Champions in 1928;
Italy 1934-38. Allegedly some skullduggery involved in their home win,
and again it is all too long ago.
I do vaguely remember reading somewhere that there was some skullduggery involved in 1934. Can you give any details?
Argentina 1986 were good, but probably not as good as France or the USSR
or Brazil from the same tournament. And by 1990 they were an
embarrassment that did not deserve to make the final. All of Italy,
Germany, Brazil, and possibly Yugoslavia were clearly better than they
were in that tournament.
As far as I know they were good in 1991 and 1993 too. (I didn't see any of their matches though.) I don't think they were that bad in 1990, but to some extent I agree about that year.
NL 1974-1978. Remembered very fondly, but they won nothing and only
barely qualified in 1974, and lost to Scotland in 1978. Beaten by the
Czechs in 1976 as well.
Czechoslovakia went on to become champions of the continent so there's no shame in that. On the whole I agree though. In their defense, they reached 2 World Cup Finals, and faced opponents who had home advantage in both of them. Who knows whether they'd have won 1, or maybe both, of those finals if they'd been played at neutral venues?
I can accept Hungary though I have seen only a few moments of their
play, since there is such a huge consensus over how good they were , and
how innovative their play. Plus the results vs. England and others
certainly support their prowess.
France 1984-86 belong on there.
I don't think they won enough. Were they any better than Netherlands late 1980s
France 2016-2021 belong on there as well.
A case could be made for Germany 2010-2014. Or even 2008-2014.
Those 2 only won 1 World Cup. Why do you think they're any better than Germany 1954 or Italy 2006?
On 2021-11-13 09:51, Mark wrote:Ultra Axiom|iticos, Axiomatics, Axiomatischen, Assiomatici, Axiomatiques et al.:
On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 8:17:14 PM UTC, MH wrote:
On 2021-11-06 12:39, Mark wrote:
On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 4:55:19 PM UTC, Mark wrote:I disagree. I don't think Uruguay of 1926-30 belong there. None of us
OK here's a proposal for a Top 10. Using the word team very loosely; some of these have probably only got 1 or 2 players that were in the team for the whole period of time mentioned.
1 Brazil 1958-70
2 Spain 2008-12
3 Brazil 1994-99
4 Italy 1934-38
5 Argentina 1986-93
6 Argentina 1941-47
7 Uruguay 1926-30
8 Germany 1972-76
9 Hungary 1950-56
10 Netherlands 1974-78
And an honourable mention for Peru 1970-78; World Cup quarter-finalists in 1970, Champions of South America in 1975, and beat Brazil away on their way to the title, after Brazil had beaten Argentina away, World Cup quarter-finalists in 1978, won more major titles than the Netherlands team of that era or Hungary in the 1950s, and had 1 of the all time greats playing for them, Teofilo Cubillas.
What do you think of that list?
Hey have we actually reached a consensus? Nobody disagrees with this? >>>
saw them, there is limited footage, and pretty good grounds for thinking >> the Scotland and England teams, at least, of that era, would have beat
them. Most prominent European countries did not participate in the 1930 WC
Uruguay were Olympic Champions in 1928;Professionals were not allowed
the prominent European teams would have had a chance to prove they were better then. I'm not sure how much the Olympics counted for back then,
but I think it counted for significantly more than it does now. If
Scotland and England were good enough to beat them they'd have been good enough to make an impact at the 1934 World Cup; they literally didn't
even turn up. And Uruguay were willing to pay everyone's travelling
expenses in 1930, so what excuse have the prominent European countries
got for not turning up then?
Good question. But it is hard to put ourselves in the mindset of people
in 1930, and with the great depression and everything, who knows.
Italy 1934-38. Allegedly some skullduggery involved in their home win,
and again it is all too long ago.
I do vaguely remember reading somewhere that there was some skullduggery involved in 1934. Can you give any details?I would have to look it up.
Argentina 1986 were good, but probably not as good as France or the USSR >> or Brazil from the same tournament. And by 1990 they were an
embarrassment that did not deserve to make the final. All of Italy,
Germany, Brazil, and possibly Yugoslavia were clearly better than they
were in that tournament.
As far as I know they were good in 1991 and 1993 too. (I didn't see any of their matches though.) I don't think they were that bad in 1990, but to some extent I agree about that year.
NL 1974-1978. Remembered very fondly, but they won nothing and only
barely qualified in 1974, and lost to Scotland in 1978. Beaten by the
Czechs in 1976 as well.
Czechoslovakia went on to become champions of the continent so there's no shame in that. On the whole I agree though. In their defense, they reached 2 World Cup Finals, and faced opponents who had home advantage in both of them. Who knows whether they'd have won 1, or maybe both, of those finals if they'd been played at neutral venues?
I can accept Hungary though I have seen only a few moments of their
play, since there is such a huge consensus over how good they were , and >> how innovative their play. Plus the results vs. England and others
certainly support their prowess.
France 1984-86 belong on there.
I don't think they won enough. Were they any better than Netherlands late 1980sYes.
A World Cup, a nation's cup, a final appearance... plus the feeling thatFrance 2016-2021 belong on there as well.
in spite of looking uninspiring for long periods, they could raise their game when necessary.
A case could be made for Germany 2010-2014. Or even 2008-2014.
Those 2 only won 1 World Cup. Why do you think they're any better than Germany 1954 or Italy 2006?
Because there are far more contenders for a world cup now than there
were in 1954 ? Germany in 2008-2014 lost a final, won a final, and
won a third place. Plus there was a consistent set of players through
that.
Italy went out in the group stage in 2004, and were not terribly
impressive in 2008, before going out in the group stage in 2010. And in 2006, they ended up with an easier path to the final through no fault of their own. And in the end only won on pens. Do deserve plaudits for the
game vs. Germany, but not much else.
rCLUruguay were willing to pay everyone's travellingexpenses in 1930rCY
or Brazil from the same tournament. And by 1990 they were anrCo 3.A. ThatrCOs gut feeling and obvious hatred! ThatrCOs the wrong way to rank teams. Soccer is the most notorious sport in this regard. Where else can you see police dawgs on the sidelines and people killing one another because of a game!!!
embarrassment that did not deserve to make the final.rCY
NL 1974-1978. Remembered very fondly, but they won nothing and only
barely qualified in 1974, and lost to Scotland in 1978. Beaten by the
Czechs in 1976 as well.
Czechoslovakia went on to become champions of the continent so there's no shame in that. On the whole I agree though. In their defense, they reached 2 World Cup Finals, and faced opponents who had home advantage in both of them. Who knows whether they'd have won 1, or maybe both, of those finals if they'd been played at neutral venues?
2. People (innocently?) make nationalist confusions. The nations that split do NOT deserve to inherit the records of the initial nation.
rCo 2.A. LetrCOs not confuse the Czech Republic for Czechoslovakia. It is offensive to Slovakia. Czechoslovakia never won the European championship. It was Czech Republic that won the European championship, but only after Czechoslovakia disassembled.
Czechoslovakia played in two World Cup finals rCo the reason why it is listed in the all-time Top-10 national teams. There were Czech and Slovak players in that national team. It was considered a national team at the time.
rCo 2.B. LetrCOs not confuse Russia for USSR. USSR won the European championship. Russia hasnrCOt won any international title in soccer.
rCo 2.C. LetrCOs not confuse Serbia and Croatia for Yugoslavia. The original nation played in two World Cup semifinals but hasnrCOt won any international title. The curious thing here is Croatia. After the split, and therefore a significantly smaller nation, Croatia played a World Cup final and also won a semifinal. Bravo!
3. And then the discussion derails badly! Quote:
rCLArgentina 1986 were good, but probably not as good as France or the USSR
or Brazil from the same tournament. And by 1990 they were an
embarrassment that did not deserve to make the final.rCY
rCo 3.A. ThatrCOs gut feeling and obvious hatred!
rCo 3.B. However, I sez: Only the results count!
On 2021-11-13 13:03, Ion Saliu wrote:Axio MH:
OK I should have said Czechoslovaks, or Czechs and Slovaks, here, but idiomatic English use, at least here in Canada, always shortened that to Czechs.NL 1974-1978. Remembered very fondly, but they won nothing and only >>>> barely qualified in 1974, and lost to Scotland in 1978. Beaten by the >>>> Czechs in 1976 as well.
Nope it was in 1976, long before disassembly. And most of the team were Slovaks, as Werner keeps pointing out.2. People (innocently?) make nationalist confusions. The nations that split do NOT deserve to inherit the records of the initial nation.
Czechoslovakia went on to become champions of the continent so there's no shame in that. On the whole I agree though. In their defense, they reached 2 World Cup Finals, and faced opponents who had home advantage in both of them. Who knows whether they'd have won 1, or maybe both, of those finals if they'd been played at neutral venues?
rCo 2.A. LetrCOs not confuse the Czech Republic for Czechoslovakia. It is offensive to Slovakia. Czechoslovakia never won the European championship. It was Czech Republic that won the European championship, but only after Czechoslovakia disassembled.
Czechoslovakia played in two World Cup finals rCo the reason why it is listed in the all-time Top-10 national teams. There were Czech and Slovak players in that national team. It was considered a national team at the time.I said, and meant USSR in my post.
rCo 2.B. LetrCOs not confuse Russia for USSR. USSR won the European championship. Russia hasnrCOt won any international title in soccer.
rCo 2.C. LetrCOs not confuse Serbia and Croatia for Yugoslavia. The original nation played in two World Cup semifinals but hasnrCOt won any international title. The curious thing here is Croatia. After the split, and therefore a significantly smaller nation, Croatia played a World Cup final and also won a semifinal. Bravo!I said, and meant Yugoslavia in my post (about 1990)
3. And then the discussion derails badly! Quote:
rCLArgentina 1986 were good, but probably not as good as France or the USSR
or Brazil from the same tournament. And by 1990 they were an
embarrassment that did not deserve to make the final.rCY
rCo 3.A. ThatrCOs gut feeling and obvious hatred!Gut feeling yes, obvious hatred no. Most of us Scots were quite happy Argentina knocked out England, or indifferent. Though the hand of God
still rankles. Anyway "probably not" leaves room for discussion.
ThatrCOs the wrong way to rank teams. Soccer is the most notorious sport
in this regard. Where else can you see police dawgs on the sidelines and people killing one another because of a game!!!
rCo 3.B. However, I sez: Only the results count!When evaluating "greatness" most of us do have other subjective criteria beyond results.
Many people agree with me that there are objective, unbiased measures in rating the teams. The Elo system has
On 2021-11-13 09:51, Mark wrote:I'm still not convinced we should omit Italy 1934-38 or Argentina 1986-93. We could perhaps put them lower ? I'm a bit more convinced but still unsure about omitting Uruguay. I'm OK with omitting Netherlands though.
On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 8:17:14 PM UTC, MH wrote:
On 2021-11-06 12:39, Mark wrote:
On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 4:55:19 PM UTC, Mark wrote:I disagree. I don't think Uruguay of 1926-30 belong there. None of us
OK here's a proposal for a Top 10. Using the word team very loosely; some of these have probably only got 1 or 2 players that were in the team for the whole period of time mentioned.
1 Brazil 1958-70
2 Spain 2008-12
3 Brazil 1994-99
4 Italy 1934-38
5 Argentina 1986-93
6 Argentina 1941-47
7 Uruguay 1926-30
8 Germany 1972-76
9 Hungary 1950-56
10 Netherlands 1974-78
And an honourable mention for Peru 1970-78; World Cup quarter-finalists in 1970, Champions of South America in 1975, and beat Brazil away on their way to the title, after Brazil had beaten Argentina away, World Cup quarter-finalists in 1978, won more major titles than the Netherlands team of that era or Hungary in the 1950s, and had 1 of the all time greats playing for them, Teofilo Cubillas.
What do you think of that list?
Hey have we actually reached a consensus? Nobody disagrees with this? >>>
saw them, there is limited footage, and pretty good grounds for thinking >> the Scotland and England teams, at least, of that era, would have beat
them. Most prominent European countries did not participate in the 1930 WC
Uruguay were Olympic Champions in 1928;Professionals were not allowed
the prominent European teams would have had a chance to prove they were better then. I'm not sure how much the Olympics counted for back then,
but I think it counted for significantly more than it does now. If
Scotland and England were good enough to beat them they'd have been good enough to make an impact at the 1934 World Cup; they literally didn't
even turn up. And Uruguay were willing to pay everyone's travelling
expenses in 1930, so what excuse have the prominent European countries
got for not turning up then?
Good question. But it is hard to put ourselves in the mindset of people
in 1930, and with the great depression and everything, who knows.
Italy 1934-38. Allegedly some skullduggery involved in their home win,
and again it is all too long ago.
I do vaguely remember reading somewhere that there was some skullduggery involved in 1934. Can you give any details?I would have to look it up.
Argentina 1986 were good, but probably not as good as France or the USSR >> or Brazil from the same tournament. And by 1990 they were an
embarrassment that did not deserve to make the final. All of Italy,
Germany, Brazil, and possibly Yugoslavia were clearly better than they
were in that tournament.
As far as I know they were good in 1991 and 1993 too. (I didn't see any of their matches though.) I don't think they were that bad in 1990, but to some extent I agree about that year.
NL 1974-1978. Remembered very fondly, but they won nothing and only
barely qualified in 1974, and lost to Scotland in 1978. Beaten by the
Czechs in 1976 as well.
Czechoslovakia went on to become champions of the continent so there's no shame in that. On the whole I agree though. In their defense, they reached 2 World Cup Finals, and faced opponents who had home advantage in both of them. Who knows whether they'd have won 1, or maybe both, of those finals if they'd been played at neutral venues?
I can accept Hungary though I have seen only a few moments of their
play, since there is such a huge consensus over how good they were , and >> how innovative their play. Plus the results vs. England and others
certainly support their prowess.
France 1984-86 belong on there.
I don't think they won enough. Were they any better than Netherlands late 1980sYes.
A World Cup, a nation's cup, a final appearance... plus the feeling thatFrance 2016-2021 belong on there as well.
in spite of looking uninspiring for long periods, they could raise their game when necessary.
A case could be made for Germany 2010-2014. Or even 2008-2014.
Those 2 only won 1 World Cup. Why do you think they're any better than Germany 1954 or Italy 2006?
Because there are far more contenders for a world cup now than there
were in 1954 ? Germany in 2008-2014 lost a final, won a final, and
won a third place. Plus there was a consistent set of players through
that.
Italy went out in the group stage in 2004, and were not terribly
impressive in 2008, before going out in the group stage in 2010. And in 2006, they ended up with an easier path to the final through no fault of their own. And in the end only won on pens. Do deserve plaudits for the
game vs. Germany, but not much else.
On Saturday, November 13, 2021 at 5:12:55 PM UTC, MH wrote:So where do we go from here in our quest for a consensus? There's 6 teams in the proposed top 10 that noone's disagreed with, which suggests there's some hope of us reaching a consensus.
On 2021-11-13 09:51, Mark wrote:
On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 8:17:14 PM UTC, MH wrote:
On 2021-11-06 12:39, Mark wrote:
On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 4:55:19 PM UTC, Mark wrote:I disagree. I don't think Uruguay of 1926-30 belong there. None of us >> saw them, there is limited footage, and pretty good grounds for thinking
OK here's a proposal for a Top 10. Using the word team very loosely; some of these have probably only got 1 or 2 players that were in the team for the whole period of time mentioned.
1 Brazil 1958-70
2 Spain 2008-12
3 Brazil 1994-99
4 Italy 1934-38
5 Argentina 1986-93
6 Argentina 1941-47
7 Uruguay 1926-30
8 Germany 1972-76
9 Hungary 1950-56
10 Netherlands 1974-78
And an honourable mention for Peru 1970-78; World Cup quarter-finalists in 1970, Champions of South America in 1975, and beat Brazil away on their way to the title, after Brazil had beaten Argentina away, World Cup quarter-finalists in 1978, won more major titles than the Netherlands team of that era or Hungary in the 1950s, and had 1 of the all time greats playing for them, Teofilo Cubillas.
What do you think of that list?
Hey have we actually reached a consensus? Nobody disagrees with this? >>>
the Scotland and England teams, at least, of that era, would have beat >> them. Most prominent European countries did not participate in the 1930 WC
Uruguay were Olympic Champions in 1928;Professionals were not allowed
the prominent European teams would have had a chance to prove they were better then. I'm not sure how much the Olympics counted for back then,
but I think it counted for significantly more than it does now. If Scotland and England were good enough to beat them they'd have been good enough to make an impact at the 1934 World Cup; they literally didn't
even turn up. And Uruguay were willing to pay everyone's travelling expenses in 1930, so what excuse have the prominent European countries
got for not turning up then?
Good question. But it is hard to put ourselves in the mindset of people
in 1930, and with the great depression and everything, who knows.
Italy 1934-38. Allegedly some skullduggery involved in their home win, >> and again it is all too long ago.
I do vaguely remember reading somewhere that there was some skullduggery involved in 1934. Can you give any details?I would have to look it up.
Argentina 1986 were good, but probably not as good as France or the USSR
or Brazil from the same tournament. And by 1990 they were an
embarrassment that did not deserve to make the final. All of Italy,
Germany, Brazil, and possibly Yugoslavia were clearly better than they >> were in that tournament.
As far as I know they were good in 1991 and 1993 too. (I didn't see any of their matches though.) I don't think they were that bad in 1990, but to some extent I agree about that year.
NL 1974-1978. Remembered very fondly, but they won nothing and only
barely qualified in 1974, and lost to Scotland in 1978. Beaten by the >> Czechs in 1976 as well.
Czechoslovakia went on to become champions of the continent so there's no shame in that. On the whole I agree though. In their defense, they reached 2 World Cup Finals, and faced opponents who had home advantage in both of them. Who knows whether they'd have won 1, or maybe both, of those finals if they'd been played at neutral venues?
I can accept Hungary though I have seen only a few moments of their
play, since there is such a huge consensus over how good they were , and
how innovative their play. Plus the results vs. England and others
certainly support their prowess.
France 1984-86 belong on there.
I don't think they won enough. Were they any better than Netherlands late 1980sYes.
A World Cup, a nation's cup, a final appearance... plus the feeling that in spite of looking uninspiring for long periods, they could raise their game when necessary.France 2016-2021 belong on there as well.
A case could be made for Germany 2010-2014. Or even 2008-2014.
Those 2 only won 1 World Cup. Why do you think they're any better than Germany 1954 or Italy 2006?
Because there are far more contenders for a world cup now than thereI'm still not convinced we should omit Italy 1934-38 or Argentina 1986-93. We could perhaps put them lower ? I'm a bit more convinced but still unsure about omitting Uruguay. I'm OK with omitting Netherlands though.
were in 1954 ? Germany in 2008-2014 lost a final, won a final, and
won a third place. Plus there was a consistent set of players through that.
Italy went out in the group stage in 2004, and were not terribly impressive in 2008, before going out in the group stage in 2010. And in 2006, they ended up with an easier path to the final through no fault of their own. And in the end only won on pens. Do deserve plaudits for the game vs. Germany, but not much else.
Even if we do omit all 4 though, I think there's better teams to replace them than the ones you've suggested. I think France 1998-2000 and Germany's team of the 1980s (provisionally 1980-1990, I'm a bit unsure of exactly what years) were better teams.
So where do we go from here in our quest for a consensus? There's 6 teams in the proposed top 10 that noone's disagreed with, which suggests there's some hope of us reaching a consensus.OK here's another proposal for the top 10. I've omitted Netherlands, and put Argentina 1986-93 and Uruguay 1926-30 a bit lower. I've left Italy where they are pending further information/evidence about the skullduggery in 1934. I managed to squeeze in France 2016-21. I didn't manage to find room for Germany 2008-14, and I don't think France 1984-86 are good enough for the top 10.
Does someone want to make another proposal for a Top 10? (I'm willing to if noone else does.) Or what?
1 Brazil 1958-70
2 Spain 2008-12
3 Brazil 1994-99
4 Italy 1934-38
5 Argentina 1941-47
6 Argentina 1986-93
7 Germany 1972-76
8 Hungary 1950-56
9 Uruguay 1926-30
10 France 2016-2021
On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 9:33:00 PM UTC, Mark wrote:
1 Brazil 1958-70
2 Spain 2008-12
3 Brazil 1994-99
4 Italy 1934-38
5 Argentina 1941-47
6 Argentina 1986-93
7 Germany 1972-76
8 Hungary 1950-56
9 Uruguay 1926-30
10 France 2016-2021
Is this a consensus then? As it's more a case of noone strongly disagreeing rather than everyone agreeing, I can hardly call it official, but can I declare this the unofficial rss sanctioned top 10?
We have already said that we don't agree. Germany 1972-76 should beWhy?
much higher.
What is your proof they were better than England or Scotland or WalesThey were World Champions in 1930. None of the teams you mentioned ever came close.
(and in the 20s, Scotland might on average have been the best of the
three).
Argentina 1990 (included in your range; they were actually a better teamThey were the 2nd best team in the world at the time.
in 1994) ? You are taking the Mickey.
I can't agree there. They only won 1 European Championship, with home advantage.
France 1984-86 should be on there.
As for Argentina 1941-47, who did they actually play? The world was atAll the members of CONMEBOL other than Venezuela. That includes Uruguay and Brazil, the Champions and runners-up at the 1950 World Cup.
war and mot leagues suspended.
On Sunday, November 28, 2021 at 3:51:49 AM UTC, MH wrote:
We have already said that we don't agree. Germany 1972-76 should be
much higher.
Why?
Uruguay in prehistoric times should not be on there.
What is your proof they were better than England or Scotland or Wales
(and in the 20s, Scotland might on average have been the best of the
three).
They were World Champions in 1930. None of the teams you mentioned ever came close.
Argentina 1990 (included in your range; they were actually a better team
in 1994) ? You are taking the Mickey.
They were the 2nd best team in the world at the time.
France 1984-86 should be on there.
I can't agree there. They only won 1 European Championship, with home advantage.
As for Argentina 1941-47, who did they actually play? The world was at
war and mot leagues suspended.
All the members of CONMEBOL other than Venezuela. That includes Uruguay and Brazil, the Champions and runners-up at the 1950 World Cup.
Ok, how about you (or anybody else) propose a Top 10, not including France 1984-86 (or, if you're adamant they should be included, a top however many you can do without including them (maybe we can agree on a top 7 or 8 even if we can't reach a consensus on a top 10)? As far as I know, my post dated Nov 21 lists all the teams that nobody disagrees with.
On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 9:33:00 PM UTC, Mark wrote:
1 Brazil 1958-70
2 Spain 2008-12
3 Brazil 1994-99
4 Italy 1934-38
5 Argentina 1941-47
6 Argentina 1986-93
7 Germany 1972-76
8 Hungary 1950-56
9 Uruguay 1926-30
10 France 2016-2021
Is this a consensus then? As it's more a case of noone strongly
disagreeing rather than everyone agreeing, I can hardly call it
official,
but can I declare this the unofficial rss sanctioned top
10?
On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 9:33:00 PM UTC, Mark wrote:
1 Brazil 1958-70Is this a consensus then? As it's more a case of noone strongly disagreeing rather than everyone agreeing, I can hardly call it official, but can I declare this the unofficial rss sanctioned top 10?
2 Spain 2008-12
3 Brazil 1994-99
4 Italy 1934-38
5 Argentina 1941-47
6 Argentina 1986-93
7 Germany 1972-76
8 Hungary 1950-56
9 Uruguay 1926-30
10 France 2016-2021
1 Brazil 1958-70
2 Spain 2008-12
3 Brazil 1994-99
4 Italy 1934-38
5 Argentina 1941-47
6 Argentina 1986-93
7 Germany 1972-76
8 Hungary 1950-56
9 Uruguay 1926-30
10 France 2016-2021
On 2021-11-28 09:04, Mark wrote:I'm not sure there was very much stopping them. And apart from Italy, which top European teams made an impact at the 1934 World Cup either? And France were there in 1930; they're a top European team aren't they?
On Sunday, November 28, 2021 at 3:51:49 AM UTC, MH wrote:
We have already said that we don't agree. Germany 1972-76 should be
much higher.
Why?They won the Euros convincingly in 1972, with perhaps their greatest
team ever. They won the world cup two years later. They went to the
final of Euro 76 and only lost on penalties. In those tournaments they
did not need wins on penalties to get to the final.
Uruguay in prehistoric times should not be on there.
What is your proof they were better than England or Scotland or Wales
(and in the 20s, Scotland might on average have been the best of the
three).
They were World Champions in 1930. None of the teams you mentioned ever came close.Because none of the stronger teams in Europe competed in WC 1930. How
can it even be counted. They were also at a huge advantage playing at
home.
World Champions in 1986, runners-up in 1990. Germany were the only team that could match that.
Argentina 1990 (included in your range; they were actually a better team >> in 1994) ? You are taking the Mickey.
They were the 2nd best team in the world at the time.Nonsense, getting to he final of a world cup after being outplayed in
many of their games, and requiring PKs in consecutive matches to get
there does not make you second best.
Nobody said they disagreed with my 2nd proposal till about 2 days ago.
France 1984-86 should be on there.
I can't agree there. They only won 1 European Championship, with home advantage.Won it very convincingly for the most part. And then were strong enough
to beat Brazil at the WC in a legendary match. They were a better team
than W. Germany , just did not get the breaks in the SF. You include
Hungary who won nothing,, and probably rightly so....
As for Argentina 1941-47, who did they actually play? The world was at
war and mot leagues suspended.
All the members of CONMEBOL other than Venezuela. That includes Uruguay and Brazil, the Champions and runners-up at the 1950 World Cup.
Ok, how about you (or anybody else) propose a Top 10, not including France 1984-86 (or, if you're adamant they should be included, a top however many you can do without including them (maybe we can agree on a top 7 or 8 even if we can't reach a consensus on a top 10)? As far as I know, my post dated Nov 21 lists all the teams that nobody disagrees with.
How about you stop pretending to announce things on behalf of other
people, who quite clearly don't agree with you?
I would accept a top ten based on ELO ratings as Daniele suggested, or a series of nominations then narrowed down to a uniform criterion -- sayI don't really understand what you mean by this. Feel free to explain further. --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
best one year (or two or three) in that team's life span. 12 years is
way too long.
5 Argentina 1941-47
Does not belong on this list. For all their supposed greatness, they never had the opportunity to confront themselves against the best in Europe. Might as well include England from the 1910s then.
6 Argentina 1986-93
Does not even come close to belonging on this list. No continuity, no dominance.
Ultra-Axiomatics:
Consensus is an absurdity. Not even the primordial consensus rCo da couple rCo canrCOt reach consensus more often than not.
And thatrCOs where da number comes in. Da number gets us near-consensus as close as it gets. It ainrCOt absolute, but tis da best we get. So, this is da best classification of the ACUTE form of rCyDa Best National Football Team of a Short Period of TimerCO. Only the Elo Rating System can achieve such a daunting task rCo
1 Hungary 2230 (1st) 30 Jun 1954 1st (1952,1960) 1527 / 75th 19 Nov 2003
2 Germany 2223 (1st) 13 Jul 2014 1st (1966,2017) 1639 / 24th 26 Sep 1920
3 England 2216 (1st) 9 Sep 1912 1st (1872,1988) 1790 / 17th 31 Mar 1928
4 Brazil 2194 (1st) 17 Jun 1962 1st (1958,2019) 1813 / 20th 24 Sep 1922
5 Spain 2165 (1st) 11 Jul 2010 1st (1920,2013) 1800 / 19th 25 Jun 1969
6 Argentina 2159 (1st) 3 Apr 1957 1st (1929,2016) 1751 / 26th 8 Jun 1990
7 Netherlands 2154 (2nd) 12 Jul 2014 1st (1978,2014) 1550 / 53rd 24 Oct 1954 8 France 2137 (1st) 30 May 2001 1st (1984,2007) 1506 / 40th 18 May 1930
9 Italy 2132 (1st) 11 Jun 1939 1st (1952,2006) 1604 / 22nd 29 Aug 1920
10 Uruguay 2108 (1st) 13 Jun 1928 1st (1920,1929) 1635 / 44th 5 Sep 1979
11 Scotland 2104 (1st) 10 Mar 1888 1st (1876,1926) 1600 / 64th 26 Mar 2005 12 Russia 2088 (1st) 23 Jul 1966 1st (1963,1988) 1449 / 48th 14 Sep 1913
13 Belgium 2084 (3rd) 12 Oct 2018 3rd (2018,2019) 1498 / 70th 29 Mar 1936
14 Poland 2083 (2nd) 1 Sep 1974 2nd (1974,1975) 1526 / 61st 26 Aug 1956
15 Denmark 2077 (1st) 25 Jun 1916 1st (1914,1916) 1536 / 61st 24 May 1967
16 Austria 2068 (1st) 31 May 1934 1st (1934) 1550 / 74th 2 Sep 2011
17 Chile 2041 (3rd) 26 Jun 2016 2nd (2016) 1384 / 60th 6 Jul 1916
18 Czech Republic 2037 (1st) 27 Jun 2004 1st (2004,2005) 1670 / 46th 4 Sep 2017
19 Colombia 2035 (5th) 28 Jun 2014 3rd (2016) 1304 / 100th 13 Mar 1957
20 Portugal 2022 (3rd) 28 Jul 1966 2nd (2006) 1619 / 42nd 7 Nov 1962
On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 8:24:49 AM UTC, ions...@gmail.com wrote:Axiom|itico:
Ultra-Axiomatics:
Consensus is an absurdity. Not even the primordial consensus rCo da couple rCo canrCOt reach consensus more often than not.
And thatrCOs where da number comes in. Da number gets us near-consensus as close as it gets. It ainrCOt absolute, but tis da best we get. So, this is da best classification of the ACUTE form of rCyDa Best National Football Team of a Short Period of TimerCO. Only the Elo Rating System can achieve such a daunting task rCo
1 Hungary 2230 (1st) 30 Jun 1954 1st (1952,1960) 1527 / 75th 19 Nov 2003
2 Germany 2223 (1st) 13 Jul 2014 1st (1966,2017) 1639 / 24th 26 Sep 1920
3 England 2216 (1st) 9 Sep 1912 1st (1872,1988) 1790 / 17th 31 Mar 1928
4 Brazil 2194 (1st) 17 Jun 1962 1st (1958,2019) 1813 / 20th 24 Sep 1922
5 Spain 2165 (1st) 11 Jul 2010 1st (1920,2013) 1800 / 19th 25 Jun 1969
6 Argentina 2159 (1st) 3 Apr 1957 1st (1929,2016) 1751 / 26th 8 Jun 1990
7 Netherlands 2154 (2nd) 12 Jul 2014 1st (1978,2014) 1550 / 53rd 24 Oct 1954
8 France 2137 (1st) 30 May 2001 1st (1984,2007) 1506 / 40th 18 May 1930
9 Italy 2132 (1st) 11 Jun 1939 1st (1952,2006) 1604 / 22nd 29 Aug 1920
10 Uruguay 2108 (1st) 13 Jun 1928 1st (1920,1929) 1635 / 44th 5 Sep 1979
11 Scotland 2104 (1st) 10 Mar 1888 1st (1876,1926) 1600 / 64th 26 Mar 2005 12 Russia 2088 (1st) 23 Jul 1966 1st (1963,1988) 1449 / 48th 14 Sep 1913 13 Belgium 2084 (3rd) 12 Oct 2018 3rd (2018,2019) 1498 / 70th 29 Mar 1936 14 Poland 2083 (2nd) 1 Sep 1974 2nd (1974,1975) 1526 / 61st 26 Aug 1956
15 Denmark 2077 (1st) 25 Jun 1916 1st (1914,1916) 1536 / 61st 24 May 1967 16 Austria 2068 (1st) 31 May 1934 1st (1934) 1550 / 74th 2 Sep 2011
17 Chile 2041 (3rd) 26 Jun 2016 2nd (2016) 1384 / 60th 6 Jul 1916
18 Czech Republic 2037 (1st) 27 Jun 2004 1st (2004,2005) 1670 / 46th 4 Sep 2017
19 Colombia 2035 (5th) 28 Jun 2014 3rd (2016) 1304 / 100th 13 Mar 1957
20 Portugal 2022 (3rd) 28 Jul 1966 2nd (2006) 1619 / 42nd 7 Nov 1962
I don't understand this list. Why are there 3 or 4 years mentioned for each team? Eg when were Brazil rated 2194? Was it 1962, 1958 or 2019?
On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 8:24:49 AM UTC, ions...@gmail.com wrote:
Ultra-Axiomatics:I don't understand this list.
Consensus is an absurdity. Not even the primordial consensus rCo da couple rCo canrCOt reach consensus more often than not.
And thatrCOs where da number comes in. Da number gets us near-consensus as close as it gets. It ainrCOt absolute, but tis da best we get. So, this is da best classification of the ACUTE form of rCyDa Best National Football Team of a Short Period of TimerCO. Only the Elo Rating System can achieve such a daunting task rCo
1 Hungary 2230 (1st) 30 Jun 1954 1st (1952,1960) 1527 / 75th 19 Nov 2003
2 Germany 2223 (1st) 13 Jul 2014 1st (1966,2017) 1639 / 24th 26 Sep 1920
3 England 2216 (1st) 9 Sep 1912 1st (1872,1988) 1790 / 17th 31 Mar 1928
4 Brazil 2194 (1st) 17 Jun 1962 1st (1958,2019) 1813 / 20th 24 Sep 1922
5 Spain 2165 (1st) 11 Jul 2010 1st (1920,2013) 1800 / 19th 25 Jun 1969
6 Argentina 2159 (1st) 3 Apr 1957 1st (1929,2016) 1751 / 26th 8 Jun 1990
7 Netherlands 2154 (2nd) 12 Jul 2014 1st (1978,2014) 1550 / 53rd 24 Oct 1954 >> 8 France 2137 (1st) 30 May 2001 1st (1984,2007) 1506 / 40th 18 May 1930
9 Italy 2132 (1st) 11 Jun 1939 1st (1952,2006) 1604 / 22nd 29 Aug 1920
Ultra-Axiomatics:
Consensus is an absurdity. Not even the primordial consensus rCo da couple rCo canrCOt reach consensus more often than not.
And thatrCOs where da number comes in. Da number gets us near-consensus as close as it gets. It ainrCOt absolute, but tis da best we get. So, this is da best classification of the ACUTE form of rCyDa Best National Football Team of a Short Period of TimerCO. Only the Elo Rating System can achieve such a daunting task rCo
1 Hungary 2230 (1st) 30 Jun 1954 1st (1952,1960) 1527 / 75th 19 Nov 2003
2 Germany 2223 (1st) 13 Jul 2014 1st (1966,2017) 1639 / 24th 26 Sep 1920
3 England 2216 (1st) 9 Sep 1912 1st (1872,1988) 1790 / 17th 31 Mar 1928
4 Brazil 2194 (1st) 17 Jun 1962 1st (1958,2019) 1813 / 20th 24 Sep 1922
5 Spain 2165 (1st) 11 Jul 2010 1st (1920,2013) 1800 / 19th 25 Jun 1969
6 Argentina 2159 (1st) 3 Apr 1957 1st (1929,2016) 1751 / 26th 8 Jun 1990
7 Netherlands 2154 (2nd) 12 Jul 2014 1st (1978,2014) 1550 / 53rd 24 Oct 1954 8 France 2137 (1st) 30 May 2001 1st (1984,2007) 1506 / 40th 18 May 1930
9 Italy 2132 (1st) 11 Jun 1939 1st (1952,2006) 1604 / 22nd 29 Aug 1920
10 Uruguay 2108 (1st) 13 Jun 1928 1st (1920,1929) 1635 / 44th 5 Sep 1979
11 Scotland 2104 (1st) 10 Mar 1888 1st (1876,1926) 1600 / 64th 26 Mar 2005
12 Russia 2088 (1st) 23 Jul 1966 1st (1963,1988) 1449 / 48th 14 Sep 1913
13 Belgium 2084 (3rd) 12 Oct 2018 3rd (2018,2019) 1498 / 70th 29 Mar 1936
14 Poland 2083 (2nd) 1 Sep 1974 2nd (1974,1975) 1526 / 61st 26 Aug 1956
15 Denmark 2077 (1st) 25 Jun 1916 1st (1914,1916) 1536 / 61st 24 May 1967
16 Austria 2068 (1st) 31 May 1934 1st (1934) 1550 / 74th 2 Sep 2011
17 Chile 2041 (3rd) 26 Jun 2016 2nd (2016) 1384 / 60th 6 Jul 1916
18 Czech Republic 2037 (1st) 27 Jun 2004 1st (2004,2005) 1670 / 46th 4 Sep 2017
19 Colombia 2035 (5th) 28 Jun 2014 3rd (2016) 1304 / 100th 13 Mar 1957
20 Portugal 2022 (3rd) 28 Jul 1966 2nd (2006) 1619 / 42nd 7 Nov 1962
It doesnrCOt matter IF a team won the supreme title or not. For that short period of time, that particular team obtained extraordinary results. The results also were rated by rCyimportancerCO (e.g. official games in official competitions) and by rCystrength of opponentrCO (e.g. beating England is far worthier than beating China in football, but not in table tennis).
I know there is no perfection in the entire Universe, as The_Everything is Random:
On 2021-12-04 01:24, Ion Saliu wrote:
Axiomatic:Ultra-Axiomatics:
Consensus is an absurdity. Not even the primordial consensus rCo da couple rCo canrCOt reach consensus more often than not.
And thatrCOs where da number comes in. Da number gets us near-consensus as close as it gets. It ainrCOt absolute, but tis da best we get. So, this is da best classification of the ACUTE form of rCyDa Best National Football Team of a Short Period of TimerCO. Only the Elo Rating System can achieve such a daunting task rCo
1 Hungary 2230 (1st) 30 Jun 1954 1st (1952,1960) 1527 / 75th 19 Nov 2003
2 Germany 2223 (1st) 13 Jul 2014 1st (1966,2017) 1639 / 24th 26 Sep 1920
3 England 2216 (1st) 9 Sep 1912 1st (1872,1988) 1790 / 17th 31 Mar 1928
4 Brazil 2194 (1st) 17 Jun 1962 1st (1958,2019) 1813 / 20th 24 Sep 1922
5 Spain 2165 (1st) 11 Jul 2010 1st (1920,2013) 1800 / 19th 25 Jun 1969
6 Argentina 2159 (1st) 3 Apr 1957 1st (1929,2016) 1751 / 26th 8 Jun 1990
7 Netherlands 2154 (2nd) 12 Jul 2014 1st (1978,2014) 1550 / 53rd 24 Oct 1954
8 France 2137 (1st) 30 May 2001 1st (1984,2007) 1506 / 40th 18 May 1930
9 Italy 2132 (1st) 11 Jun 1939 1st (1952,2006) 1604 / 22nd 29 Aug 1920
10 Uruguay 2108 (1st) 13 Jun 1928 1st (1920,1929) 1635 / 44th 5 Sep 1979
11 Scotland 2104 (1st) 10 Mar 1888 1st (1876,1926) 1600 / 64th 26 Mar 2005 12 Russia 2088 (1st) 23 Jul 1966 1st (1963,1988) 1449 / 48th 14 Sep 1913 13 Belgium 2084 (3rd) 12 Oct 2018 3rd (2018,2019) 1498 / 70th 29 Mar 1936 14 Poland 2083 (2nd) 1 Sep 1974 2nd (1974,1975) 1526 / 61st 26 Aug 1956
15 Denmark 2077 (1st) 25 Jun 1916 1st (1914,1916) 1536 / 61st 24 May 1967 16 Austria 2068 (1st) 31 May 1934 1st (1934) 1550 / 74th 2 Sep 2011
17 Chile 2041 (3rd) 26 Jun 2016 2nd (2016) 1384 / 60th 6 Jul 1916
18 Czech Republic 2037 (1st) 27 Jun 2004 1st (2004,2005) 1670 / 46th 4 Sep 2017
19 Colombia 2035 (5th) 28 Jun 2014 3rd (2016) 1304 / 100th 13 Mar 1957
20 Portugal 2022 (3rd) 28 Jul 1966 2nd (2006) 1619 / 42nd 7 Nov 1962
It doesnrCOt matter IF a team won the supreme title or not. For that short period of time, that particular team obtained extraordinary results. The results also were rated by rCyimportancerCO (e.g. official games in official competitions) and by rCystrength of opponentrCO (e.g. beating England is far worthier than beating China in football, but not in table tennis).
I know there is no perfection in the entire Universe, as The_Everything is Random:
The problem here is that the table above only gives the top rating ever achieved by that nation (or its predecessor when FIFA carried over
history from a previous country). It does not give separate results
for a peak period of an individual team (window of maximum six years
let's say) It is possible that teams like Brazil, (West) Germany and
France, for instance, achieved an Elo rating over 2100 on several
occasions and maintained that level for several years - I have not checked.
The other problem is that Elo ratings are fine for chess, where margin
of victory does not count, and luck plays no role. And even then, a
player has to play quite a lot of games against varied opposition to
achieve a reliable and consistent rating. I am not sure how robust the
early ratings that have been retro-constructed for football would
actually be, since there were so few games, and countries tended to play their local neighbours when they did play.
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