Quoting Grant Weasner to All <=-

I have some desktops.

I'm wondering the age a computer should be to be considered classic?

I guess that would depend upon whoever was using it or wanting to use
it.

I have what I consider to be a classic, it's a 386SX 16Mhz with 2
floppys and a hard drive. I also used to be an Amiga 1200 user, and
before that a Commodore 64 user. So I personally would consider any of
these as classics.

Other people, maybe not. Just depends on the viewpoint of the user.

Cheers!

Cougar428
Don Vally


... "I'll excise the bunion," Tom said callously.

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Re: age required for classic
By: Don Vally to GRANT WEASNER on Sat Apr 05 2025 15:01:03

Hi, Don.

I have what I consider to be a classic, it's a 386SX 16Mhz with 2
floppys and a hard drive. I also used to be an Amiga 1200 user, and
before that a Commodore 64 user. So I personally would consider any of
these as classics.

Other people, maybe not. Just depends on the viewpoint of the user.

Yeah, I'm don't think there can be meaningful definition for "classic". I BBS daily on a 1992 vintage Acorn computer - for the average person that is *ancient* but I got jokingly retro-shamed the other day on a C64 board for descrbing a 32 bit system with a mouse and 800x600 graphics "retro" let alone "classic". 90s? Come and see me when you're on 70s kit!

Where does one draw the line? Something that's a nuisance to get up and running? :)

BobW
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Hello Bob!

05 Apr 25 22:00, you wrote to Don Vally:

Where does one draw the line? Something that's a nuisance to get up
and running? :)

I guess that definition makes me classic!

For the purposes for this echo, I define "classic" as any system that is not being currently manufactured in its original form. I don't count things like hobbyists recreating their favorite system (like the Color Comnputer clones), emulators, and the like against my definition.

Personally, anything older than a Pentium-class system is "classic". I own and use a Timex/Sinclair 1000 with a 16K RAM cartridge pack. My CoCo 2 was stolen decades ago but I use the ovcc emulator (https://github.com/WallyZambotti/OVCC) to tinker with my CoCo programs.

So yeah, a definition of "classic" computers is a moving target but the above is what I use for this echo.

I enjoy reading about the variety of systems people still use today.

-- Sean

... A mouse is an elephant built by the Japanese.
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Re: age required for classic
By: Bob Worm to Don Vally on Sat Apr 05 2025 22:00:30

alone "classic". 90s? Come and see me when you're on 70s kit!

And there's certainly plenty of that to go around. You got yer Altair 8800, IMSAI 8080 (my fav), Processor Technology Sol-20, et al. This was the decade of the "kit" computer.
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Re: age required for classic
By: Sean Dennis to Bob Worm on Sat Apr 05 2025 20:42:17

Hi, Sean.

I enjoy reading about the variety of systems people still use today.

Oh, I could bore you for hours about my Acorn :)

Barely anyone knows about the Acorn Archimedes systems, even in the UK where Acorn is from and where most of the systems were sold. Mine is the A3020, which is a wedge style system from '92 (ish) which has a few claims to fame:

1) The Archimedes line were the first systems to use ARM processors - yes, *that* ARM, but it stood for "Acorn RISC Machine" before the processor arm was spun off on its own.

2) Apparently the A3010 / 3020 systems used the first "system on chip", which is everywhere these days.

3) For these reasons the Archimedes systems are often considered the grandad of the Raspberry Pi (although the A / B / B+ naming convention of the Pi calls back to the BBC micro which Acorn made before the Archimedes).

I love this thing - I had no involvement with this type of computer when they were current and only really discovered what it was like to use about 2 years ago when I finally got around to powering on this one, which I saved from a skip 20 years ago.

The RiscOS windowing system boots from ROM in about 5 seconds and is full of quirky stuff like a button to send the current window to the back. Windows move with the contents visible (not like the contemporary Win 3.1). If you drag windows with the left mouse they come to the top, if you drag with the right they stay behind whatever they're behind. RAM disc (yes, with a "c" for Acorn), text editor, bitmap and vector graphics editors plus BASIC all on the ROM... 800x600x16 top res or 640x480x256. Weird file system with file type attributes rather than extensions.

I wrote my own terminal for it (Worminal, of course) since I couldn't find one that does CP437 / ANSI properly. I used a ROM dump from a VGA card to get the font 100% accurate, which would really upset the Acorn people because they love their (IMHO rather ugly) compact font. It's almost entirely in ARM assembler, which is *lovely* and you can assemble it straight from the built in BASIC. It's now my daily driver for BBSing.

BobW
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Fernando Miculan wrote to Grant Weasner <=-

Hello Grant!

El viernes 04 de abril de 2025, Grant Weasner le escribió a All:

I have some desktops.
I'm wondering the age a computer should be to be considered classic?

Umm... depend. 10 or 15 years old must be suficient, but classic
original is 286, 386 and 486. Is my opinion. :)

Age should be less of a factor thaan archicecture. What of the 8086 mother boardss? Or the Motoroola 680?


... Mainframe: The biggest PC peripheral you can buy.
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Quoting Bob Worm to Don Vally <=-

Yeah, I'm don't think there can be meaningful definition for
"classic". I BBS daily on a 1992 vintage Acorn computer - for the
average person that is *ancient* but I got jokingly retro-shamed the
other day on a C64 board for descrbing a 32 bit system with a mouse
and 800x600 graphics "retro" let alone "classic". 90s? Come and see me when you're on 70s kit!

Hi Bob, I think you hit the nail on the head there. I personally learned
and started with a Commodore VIC20, so I would consider that 80's kit.

Classics are in the mind's eye of each particular user. I have zero
experience with anything computer related prior to 1981, so you have me
beat there. I have read some material on Data General minicomputers from
the 70's but I wouldn't consider them personal systems. Maybe an Altair?

Don


... "Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again." - L. Long

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Re: age required for classic
By: Don Vally to BOB WORM on Tue Apr 08 2025 10:55:11

Hi, Don.

Classics are in the mind's eye of each particular user. I have zero experience with anything computer related prior to 1981, so you have me
beat there. I have read some material on Data General minicomputers from
the 70's but I wouldn't consider them personal systems. Maybe an Altair?

Heha, I don't have you beat - my oldest computer is from 1984 according to the QA stickers (BBC micro).

I'm going to be controversial, though, and say it's too limited to use as a daily - it can do 80 cols but only in mono and when you do that it uses most of the system memory up. I'll probably get kicked in the nuts for saying I don't really enjoy doing 6502 assembler, either. Same reason, it's just the wrong side of the fun / work divide for me! Using ARM assembler ruined everything else for me :)

The BBC is great for other things, though - since they were designed for schools they have a 4 channel "analogue in" port which makes it really easy to attach sensors. There are BASIC keywords to drive it, too, so you're not using direct memory read / write to do the analogue to digital conversion and read the values out.

You don't see that kind of thing these days ==> therefore classic, in my book :)

BobW
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Re: age required for classic
By: Dave Drum to Fernando Miculan on Tue Apr 08 2025 04:50:43

Age should be less of a factor thaan archicecture. What of the 8086 mother boardss? Or the Motoroola 680?

You can't really sperate one without the other. After all, the 8086 and 6800 are from a specific time frame.
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Hola Dave!

El martes 08 de abril de 2025, Dave Drum le escribió a Fernando Miculan:

I have some desktops.
I'm wondering the age a computer should be to be considered
classic?

Umm... depend. 10 or 15 years old must be suficient, but classic
original is 286, 386 and 486. Is my opinion. :)

Age should be less of a factor thaan archicecture. What of the 8086
mother boardss? Or the Motoroola 680?

Very Old Classics. XD

Saludos!
Fercho.-
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Bob Worm wrote to Sean Dennis <=-

Oh, I could bore you for hours about my Acorn :)

All of that was very interesting to read. There were some amazing machines made with features well ahead of
their time. I miss the near-instantaneous booting of a computer. I know those RISC machines were/are fast.

Writing your own terminal emulator sounds like fun and doing it in assembly is amazing to me. I know assembler
is fast--very fast--and is not tyhe easiest way togo but it works very well.

Thanks for sharing your love of Acorns. I do know that the British pop group Erasure still use a BBC computer
in their recording studio.

I have always been a firm believer in "newer isn't always better". I guess my personal love of retrocomputing
as well as my amateur radio hobby where my main radio is approaching 40 years old but still works fine. I wish
I was in that good shape...

-- Sean

... You can tune a piano but you can't tuna fish.
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Re: Re: age required for classic
By: Sean Dennis to Bob Worm on Tue Apr 08 2025 19:02:45

Hi, Sean.

Thanks for sharing your love of Acorns. I do know that the British pop group Erasure still use a BBC computer
in their recording studio.

That's interesting, I didn't know that (about the computer or that Erasure were still recording!). I wonder if they have one of the early editions? At first the BBC insisted on linear power supplies to keep interference down in the studios, however as you can imagine they got quite hot and were soon replaced by switched mode. I gather the emissions from the Beebs, particularly with switched mode supplies, are pretty spicy. They looked at what would be required to get it through FCC so it could be sold in the US and apparently gave up at that point :)

BobW
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Mortar M. wrote to Dave Drum <=-

Re: age required for classic
By: Dave Drum to Fernando Miculan on Tue Apr 08 2025 04:50:43

Age should be less of a factor thaan archicecture. What of the 8086 mother boardss? Or the Motoroola 680?

You can't really sperate one without the other. After all, the 8086
and 6800 are from a specific time frame. --- SBBSecho 3.24-Linux

Actually I mistyped. I meant the 68000 (Motorola) CPU that powered
Amiga, Atari and Macintrash confusers.

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Fernando Miculan wrote to Dave Drum <=-

Hola Dave!

El martes 08 de abril de 2025, Dave Drum le escribió a Fernando
Miculan:

I have some desktops.
I'm wondering the age a computer should be to be considered
classic?

Umm... depend. 10 or 15 years old must be suficient, but classic
original is 286, 386 and 486. Is my opinion. :)

Age should be less of a factor thaan archicecture. What of the 8086
mother boardss? Or the Motoroola 680?

Very Old Classics. XD

Of which I currently own ZERO. Since I made a rookie mistake and hot-swapped printer cables on my Amiga 4000. Fried the CIA chip ... which is surface
ounted
in the 4000 instead of being socketed. And my soldering skills were/are not up to replacing surface mount components.


... Amiga made it possible. Commodore made it dead.
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Quoting Bob Worm to Don Vally <=-

Heha, I don't have you beat - my oldest computer is from 1984
according to the QA stickers (BBC micro).

I did use an Apple IIE in the US Army in the very early 80's, it was
hooked to a laserdisk and was used for mapping purposes running dBase.

That was my first experience with the dot prompt and I found it
fascinating. Are you in the UK? JW as I have never had the privelege of
seeing or using a BBC Micro. So it's a 6502 system from your post, so I
guess maybe the equivalent of my C-64? Although the 64 could only do
software based 80 col (I think). I tried my hand at basic, but never
assembler (not yet anyway).

The BBC is great for other things, though - ==> therefore classic
my book :)

I agree! Sounds like a very interesting system to learn and use! Thanks
for educating me! Always a good thing...

Best regards Bob
Don Vally


... Everyone smiles in the same language.

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Quoting Grant Weasner to Don Vally <=-

I think a 386sx is retro for sure.

I used to have a 386dx. That was really the computer that got
computing going for me.

Hi Grant - After my Amiga, my first x86 series was an XT-Clone. A Packard
Bell 4/8Mhz (Turbo-Wow!) CGA system. That was my first experience with x-86 architecture. I personally consider those models too - "un-uniform" to
be fun to use. I know I may be in the minority, but you had to fight to
get them to do what you wanted. So for me the 386 is a perfect
conformist(?) system...

It will be neat to see what the retro/classic computer scene thinks is platform to bring into the light.

Agreed! I love seeing everyone's ideas in this forum. It's a lot of fun.

Thanks,

Don


... Some people drink from the fountain of knowledge; others just gargle.

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Quoting Dave Drum to Fernando Miculan <=-

Of which I currently own ZERO. Since I made a rookie mistake and hot-swapped printer cables on my Amiga 4000. Fried the CIA chip ...

Hi Dave ~ I never had the 4000 experience. I sold my 1200 when I felt
"left out" by all the software and applications being created for the
IBM clone market.

The Amiga was a great system, sound and graphics way ahead of it's time (especially compared to the XT CGA clone I started using). However, the software development was not there at that time.

I hear the 3000 and 4000 were graphics powerhouses for using video
toaster and such multimedia applications.

Best regards,

Don Vally


... BEWARE - Tagline Thief in this echo

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Re: age required for classic
By: Don Vally to GRANT WEASNER on Wed Apr 09 2025 12:08:59

...;my first x86 series was an XT-Clone. A Packard Bell 4/8Mhz (Turbo-Wow!) CGA system. That was my first experience with x-86 architecture. I personally consider those models too - "un-uniform" to be fun to use. I know I may be in the minority, but you had to fight to get them to do what you wanted.

Packard Hell's were horrible. Servicing was a headache as they used proprietary parts. They were cheap (which made them popular with the ignorant Joe Public) and louse performers. My Bro-inlaw asked my advice years ago on what PC to get, I told him, "Anything but Packard Bell". Guess what he bought? Why? "It was cheap." I rest my case.
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Re: age required for classic
By: Don Vally to BOB WORM on Wed Apr 09 2025 12:08:59

Hi, Don.

I did use an Apple IIE in the US Army in the very early 80's, it was
hooked to a laserdisk and was used for mapping purposes running dBase.

Interesting - the BBC computers had a (pretty amazing for the time) system called Domesday which used a special interface to a Laserdisc player. Basically the project collected local photographs and text articles produced by local primary schools all around the UK and put them into a trackball navigable map of the country which you could drill down into using the computer. It was quite clever as the laserdisc was mostly analogue but if you (for example) navigated to the section about Cirencester it would skip to the appropriate chapter of the laserdisc and show you photos of the town in freeze frame (CAV) and also let you see some text related to the scene which was also encoded on the disc.

Are you in the UK?

Yup, I am. Specifically in Wales, though right at this moment I'm in London.

So it's a 6502 system from your post, so I
guess maybe the equivalent of my C-64?

It is. Sort of, kind of... It's 6502 like a C64 but without the VIC-II or SID chips so a little less "multimedia". It did run at 2MHz which was pretty good for the 6502, but only had 32k of RAM. There was also a BBC Master which had a slightly boosted 65CS12 with a couple of extra instructions and 128k RAM.

I hated them when I was in school but have found an appreciation of them in my old age. At the time I was comparing them to the far superior 286 PC that my dad had brought home from work, little did I appreciate that they did so much with such tiny resources.

Better late than never :)

BobW
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Fernando Miculan wrote to Grant Weasner <=-

Of course!. The 586 and Pentium would also be considered classic computers. Actually, one sets the boundary between what's classic and what's not according to their own perspective. :) Sorry, but my english
is not good. :(

No worries. You are much better in my language than I (or nearly anyone
else in this echo) would be in yours.

... January 20, 2021 - The end of an error!
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Don Vally wrote to DAVE DRUM <=-

Of which I currently own ZERO. Since I made a rookie mistake and hot-swapped printer cables on my Amiga 4000. Fried the CIA chip ...

Hi Dave ~ I never had the 4000 experience. I sold my 1200 when I felt "left out" by all the software and applications being created for the
IBM clone market.

The Amiga was a great system, sound and graphics way ahead of it's time (especially compared to the XT CGA clone I started using). However, the software development was not there at that time.

I hear the 3000 and 4000 were graphics powerhouses for using video
toaster and such multimedia applications.

A significant portion of the confuser generated graphics for Lucas Films
(Star wars, etc) were done on Amiga confusers. It also was a great desk
top publisher machine ... although the Macintrash people woiuld never in
a gazillionn years admit that.

Had Gould and Ali not bankrupted CBM for fun and profits the Amiga could
be competing favourably for a big slice of the PC market.

... "Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math." -- Ambrose Bierce
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Quoting Mortar M. to Don Vally <=-

Re: age required for classic
By: Don Vally to GRANT WEASNER on Wed Apr 09 2025 12:08:59

Packard Hell's were horrible. Servicing was a headache as they used proprietary parts. They were cheap (which made them popular with the ignorant Joe Public) and louse performers.

Hi M - My name is Don, but you can call me Joe (Public that is). And you
are correct, I sold my CBM stuff for about 900 bucks and bought that PB
for about 1200. I'll admit, I only had a minimum wage job and needed to
support a wife and child as well at that time.

I assume that is why I don't really have fond memories of that system.
It did get me started in the IBM clone world though. After using an
Amiga 1200, the CGA graphics were pretty bad.

Don (but you can call me Don-Joe)




... Pardon me, but would you have any Blue Poupon?

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Quoting Bob Worm to Don Vally <=-

Re: age required for classic
By: Don Vally to BOB WORM on Wed Apr 09 2025 12:08:59

Interesting - the BBC computers had a (pretty amazing for the time)
system called Domesday which used a special interface to a Laserdisc player.

I must admit, the Domesday system sounds pretty interesting and capable!

I used the AppleII mapping system with dBase dot commands, but didn't
know the technical background of how it worked. I wasn't the primary
operator, just fascinated by the dBase commands to get what I wanted.

Yup, I am. Specifically in Wales, though right at this moment I'm in London.

I visited London in the 80's while stationed in Germany, and it was a
fantastic place. I have never been to Wales, but it also sounds like a
great place to see and experience. On a side note, I use John's
Background Switcher on my Win10 PC and he is from Wales (I think), he
has some fantastic photos on his blog pages.

It is. Sort of, kind of... It's 6502 like a C64 but without the VIC-II
or SID chips so a little less "multimedia".

OK, those 2 chips basically made the C-64 (IMO).

a BBC Master which had a slightly boosted 65CS12 with a couple of
extra instructions and 128k RAM.

This kind of sounds like the C-128. I used those but always switched to
the 64 mode so I could play all the games. There wasn't much software
for the 128.

Thanks for explaining the BBC Micro, sounds like a great system to me. I
can tell you are a true fan!

Don


... Everyone smiles in the same language.

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Quoting Fernando Miculan to Grant Weasner <=-

Of course!. The 586 and Pentium would also be considered classic computers. Actually, one sets the boundary between what's classic and what's not according to their own perspective. :) Sorry, but my english
is not good. :(

Hi Fernando, you're english sounds pretty good to me! I have no issues understanding what you are writing. I respect your ability, as I have
tried to learn spanish and in my estimation have failed. So keep up the
good work!

Don Vally


... This tagline is made just for Fernando Miculan

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Quoting Dave Drum to Don Vally <=-

Don Vally wrote to DAVE DRUM <=-

A significant portion of the confuser generated graphics for Lucas
Films (Star wars, etc) were done on Amiga confusers. It also was a
great desk top publisher machine

Had Gould and Ali not bankrupted CBM for fun and profits the Amiga
could be competing favourably for a big slice of the PC market.

Agreed, but water under the bridge now. When I first saw the Amiga at
the store I was flabbergasted at what it could do in comparison with
the IBM market at the time.

Thanks Dave, btw - what exactly is a confuser? (just joshing and don't
call me surely)

Don


... If you think you are confused now, wait until I explain it!

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